On NSFW Posts And How They Are Perceived

"pauljones" (pauljones)
07/16/2014 at 15:10 • Filed to: None

The notion of NSFW posts on Oppositelock has always been a contentious one, and remains so today.

When Oppositelock was first created, it, and its equivalent forums on other Gawker sites, were intended as off-topic playgrounds where commenters could discuss whatever the hell they wanted, as long as they kept such off-topic posts off the Jalopnik front page. To a certain extent, it remains so. There are things that will not be tolerated here on Oppositelock, such as personal attacks and other forms of poor behavior. For a more detailed explanation, please see the link below to Gamecat235's guidebook to Oppositelock.

The Revised Handbook for Posting on Oppo

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Seriously, read that right now.

We, as moderators tend to take a very hands-off approach. Our goal is not censorship or micro-management. Rather, our goal is to create a positive environment for anyone and everyone that wants to be here. As a rule, we do that not by policing the hell out of everyone's posts/comments, but rather by leading through the example we set. In other words, the way that we post and interact is the way that we want Oppositelock to be: courteous, fun, intelligent, helpful, and above all, welcoming. Follow the posts and comments of those such as Gamecat235, Dusty Ventures, Brian, the Life of, and you'll understand what I mean. All of the above are not only stellar commenters, but also moderators.

With that concept in mind, it's time to talk about something that genuinely does have an effect on our ability to draw in and welcome new members to the Oppositelock community: NSFW posts.

It's true that we allow NSFW posts, provided that a few basic rules are followed, as explained below:

NSFW must be announced in the title of your post and be hidden behind a safe lead image. If NSFW content is the first piece of media (picture or video) regardless of where it is in the post, Kinja will display it on the Oppo frontpage. (If you have doubts whether it's NSFW, it is. This includes nudity, real or implied, gore or anything else that might get someone in trouble if their boss caught them reading it at work, assuming that you are allowed to browse the internet at work. Additionally, let's keep this stuff to "R" rated material, we're not a porn site, the internet is full of porn, we don't need more here).

So, yes, such posts are technically allowed. Violate the above rules, however, and I promise you you'll never get the chance to violate that rule again. Your authorship will be removed. If that sounds a little harsh... it should. It's a sensitive topic. Even though the majority of commenters here are male and between the ages of 20-30, they are far from the only commenters here. There are actually underage kids that comment here, as well as women. That means that NSFW posts are by their very nature problematic. Kids should not be coming to Oppositelock to see NSFW pictures. There are plenty of other places that they can see that if they really want to (and usually do). This should be a place where they are given the opportunity to partake in a community, and understand what it means to be a constructive member of a community. NSFW posts do nothing to help that.

As for the women that participate here, or might be interested in participating here, NSFW posts can be downright insulting. There's really nothing quite like going to a place that's supposed to have an emphasis on cars, only to see pictures and comments that encourage the objectification and/or trivialization of your entire gender. They experience enough of that on a daily basis. Let's not add to it. There are few faster ways to drive away women that would otherwise enjoy contributing to the community here.

Oppositelock is supposed to be a place where gender and/or age is entirely irrelevant; all that should matter is the interest in cars and automotive culture. It should be a community that grows exponentially every single day. And yet, it isn't. A significant part of that has to do with the fact that the community itself drives away new members with things like NSFW posts.

In case you're not following so far, let me put to you in simple terms: NSFW posts offend and drive away people that would otherwise like to participate and contribute to Oppositelock.

Want proof? Here you go, a quote from a potential contributor that was turned away by such posts:

I tried to get into Oppo, but it, quite frankly, seemed like a boys club full of NSFW posts filled with naked women. So I didn't try to hard to check it out and get active.

And she's far from the only one.

Not cool, kids. Not. Cool. She shares our interest in cars and automotive culture. She should feel as welcome here as anyone else. And yet, she doesn't.

That, ladies and gentlemen (but primarily "gentlemen"), represents a failure of our community. We actually drove someone off. Whether it has happened once or many times, the principle of the matter is disturbing. That just shouldn't happen here.

What, then, can we do to fix that? Here are a couple of things to consider:

1) Don't post NSFW pics in the first place - Just don't. If you have a whole bunch of them on your computer for your own reasons, good for you. Keep them to yourself. Anyone else in the community that shares an interest in such pics likely already has a stash of their own for their own reasons. None of them are lacking, so you're not doing them any favors.

2) Discourage NSFW posts when you see them - This can be done both actively and passively. On the passive front, simply don't click on them when you see them. By refusing to give them page views, you take away the reason for posting them. On the active side, if someone makes such a post in an attempt to call out your attention in a friendly manner, express to them that there are other ways of doing so that you think are better

3) Avoid making NSFW comments in non-NSFW posts - In otherwords, if the post is not titled as NSFW, don't make the comments NSFW. It just ruins it for everyone.

At the end of the day, there is still not an outright ban on NSFW posts, so long as the rules posted above are followed. With that being said, every time you make a post, you should be asking yourself what that post is contributing to the community. You should always be trying to contribute to the community. NSFW posts don't contribute anything. Quite the opposite, they detract from the community.

We will always be on the lookout, but we can't see everything, and nor do we have any interest in such levels of micro-management.

But while there is no ban on them per se, they are still looked down upon because of the negative impact they often have on the community here. As a rule, if viewing and sharing NSFW pics is your thing, there are more appropriate venues, and we encourage you to take advantage of them.

If you are going to post them, make sure you follow the rules for them, and be aware that as mods, that is one of the few things we keep very careful track of. Keep it to a minimum, follow the rules, and think about the community as a whole.

Help us to make Oppositelock a place that is friendly, welcoming, and inclusive of everyone who shares our interest in cars and automotive culture.

DISCUSSION (94)

HammerheadFistpunch > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:28

I knew it was getting out of hand when I did a factory wipe on my phone (so a clean browser with no cookies, passwords or the like) and I started to type in oppositelock.jalopnik.com and by the time i got to "oppos" the browser had auto populated " oppositelock.jalopnik.com/tag/nsfw " that's the first thing that auto populates on a fresh browser. It's obviously drawing a crowd, just maybe the wrong ones.

Soloburrito > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:33

Guess I'll have to move ahead with my plans for frotting.kinja.com.

I can tell when I'm not wanted.

Good day!

MazdaMonkey > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:33

A great step forward. Can't we also just ban NSFW posts altogether?

The real question we should be asking is what do NSFW posts add to the forum and why do we WANT NSFW here (another way of looking at the the result of not banning them completely)?

Gamecat235 > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:41

First, thank you for posting this. This has long been a concern of mine (on a personal level, completely independent of my status as a moderator). I enjoy the female form, hell, I admire the human condition, but I have worried specifically about this because of the potential for alienation.

Oppo has never been a private club, and we have the largest number of authors of any of the subcommunities on Kinja by a rather large margin (seriously, we have north of 2300 authors and average 2.5-3 million pageviews per month). The single most appealing factor for most people (it definitely was for me) is that oppo is a welcoming place where people are afforded respect and their opinions and views are tolerated and discussed (obviously within reason).

I look forward to seeing what discussions arise from this post.

Garrett Davis > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:42

Just curious, why not just ban these posts altogether? It's pretty much the standard that internet forums (if you can call this one) ban this stuff, so it really isn't much of a leap. If it's getting to the point where you need to actively discourage it, what's stopping the next step?

pauljones > MazdaMonkey
07/16/2014 at 15:45

Complex question.

We can't simply ban NSFW posts for several reasons:

1) Under the Kinja system, moderators don't hae the same set of abilities you'd expect. We can edit/delete posts and we can remove authorship privileges, but that's about it. Anything more, and we have to elevate to Gawker IT. We can't ban people

2) Kinja isn't really set up for this sort of thing. On normal super forums, it's very easy to search, catalog, classify, and otherwise analyze posts and posting trends. From there, it becomes fairly simple to pull off and enforce blanket-style bans. Kinja, however, does not have that functionality (at least, not as far as we moderators have access to). It's essentially a continually-running stream of consciousness, and it's very easy for things to slip by or get lost. To truly enforce such a ban would therefore require a tremendous, continual effort from the mods here. Keep in mind, we're volunteers. We don't get paid to do this, and we have other things to do in life. We can't all make the level of commitment necessary to enforce such a blanket ban

3) Oppositelock began life as an off-topic, anything goes forum. As a general rule, I tend to support the notion of it remaining that way. I love cars, but I'm interested in more than just cars.

It's true that there are things that won't fly here, namely personal attacks, racism, etc. Essentially, anything that can be harmful. The problem here is that most people around here don't realize that NSFW posts can be harmful, and I'm trying to point that out. Perhaps this may lead to an all-out ban later, but right now, it's a hard thing to do.

pauljones > HammerheadFistpunch
07/16/2014 at 15:46

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. The question is what, exactly, can we do to reverse the trend.

pauljones > Garrett Davis
07/16/2014 at 15:48

MazdaMonkey, above, asked much the same question.

Here is my reply to him:

Complex question.

We can't simply ban NSFW posts for several reasons:

3) Oppositelock began life as an off-topic, anything goes forum. As a general rule, I tend to support the notion of it remaining that way. I love cars, but I'm interested in more than just cars.

In a nutshell, it becomes a logistics issue that is rather difficult to solve.

yamahog > Gamecat235
07/16/2014 at 15:50

Hell, I'm a woman who enjoys the female form, but that's what my personal life and the rest of the internet is for... on car and sports blogs it just seems like one of those coming-of-age movies where the group of 12-to-14-year-old boys find their first dirty magazine and smuggle it back to the treehouse.

505Turbeaux > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:50

I am just curious as to where this will end. If the mod community is discouraging NSFW, is banning any form of music share that may be construed as offensive next? I am not trying to start anything or condone NSFW explicitly, but as long as I have been on there have been battles between pro and con, with the general consensus in the end that if it is marked, under cover image, not in a comment not already marked NSFW, it is good. Don't like it, don't look. Easy peasy. Now we are being told to discourage it. It can be a slippery slope. I want OPPO to be friendly and open to EVERYONE, and trust me, I see the metrics. On the Facebook page insights it is 98%M, 2%F (and I can probably name them). All open to helping us expand, which is why I run that with a few others. But let us just declare it. Is it permitted, is it not. Let us not battle with each other on it. Just call it now and forever so we can get on with what the real focus is here. It is such a divisive issue, over really something so dumb. I have more goddamn porn on my computer at work than all of kinja, so it doesn't bother me either way :)

ddavidn > MazdaMonkey
07/16/2014 at 15:51

Not that my word carries any weight, but I'm glad it's not banned, even though I don't typically click. It keeps those with questionable images (not outright pornography) safe from the "banhammer" (which doesn't exist) as long as they appropriately tag and hide it. You'll see a lot of great things with "(possible NSFW)" appropriately hidden. These are usually just fine, but I'm glad they don't pop up on the main feed when I'm at work or when my wife is with me. There is a lot of that stuff which adds value to the forum, and I don't think we should ban it. Trying to ban "obviously NSFW" content gets you into a sticky situation with a big argument on what is or isn't actually "obviously NSFW" content. I think there is value to be kept by not banning NSFW content altogether, but agree with pauljones on the fact that there are many better forums for viewing and sharing NSFW content. Certainly a board could be created somewhere for those opponauts who want to do this.

yamahog > 505Turbeaux
07/16/2014 at 15:53

IMO, the facebook page is probably skewing even more male than Oppo in general because I doubt I am alone in my reluctance to share my real name with you weirdos ;)

MazdaMonkey > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 15:55

Makes sense. But, why not just ban it and enforce it when you can? Sure things will slip by, but I imagine users will bring inappropriate posts to your attention as well. If the ability to absolutely restrict and prohibit something was required to ban something, then the police wouldn't bother outlawing murder, etc., because they don't have the resources and abilities to catch and prevent every murder. I think people will be less inclined to post NSFW stuff if is not allowed. Users were self-police as well! There doesn't seem to be much riff-raff on Oppo.

My fiance loves and reads the front page all of the time. She never checks Oppo, though. One reason being that she would probably stop checking Jalop altogether if she came upon some NSFW stuff (especially when she was at work).

Regardless, keep up the good work. I love the cover picture, BTW.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > ddavidn
07/16/2014 at 15:56

I like how this is an "anything goes" forum but NSFW stuff needs to be thought of on the internet like we think of guns in the real world; Cool and valuable, but needs to be hidden away from the people that dont wanna see it.

505Turbeaux > yamahog
07/16/2014 at 15:56

haha very very true. Although noone else can see who you are unless you like or comment.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > 505Turbeaux
07/16/2014 at 15:58

I never post NSFW and rarely click on NSFW posts, but I dont like the idea of banning ANY KIND of content on Oppo.

pauljones > 505Turbeaux
07/16/2014 at 16:07

A thoughtful reply, and here are my counterpoints:

1) Where will it end?

Right here. While music can have violent, sexist, misogynistic, and other unsavory undertones, it is not the flat-out smack in the face that loggin on to Jalopnik and seeing an NSFW post can be. More often than not, you can look at the cover slide of a youtube music video and not glean a whole lot about the content of the video if you're not already familiar with it.

On the other hand, when you see a post that has a nude or implied nude woman in it followed by a bunch of cat-calling comments, it's essentially a slap in the face of a woman who does not like to see such things, but would otherwise like to contribute. Even if there is a warning in the title and a safe lead picture, you know what's there. And what, exactly, would you think if you were in the woman's place? "Sure, they aren't completely overt about it, but it's still obvious. It's equally obvious that there is a large population of commenters who partake in this sort of thing on a regular basis. Why, then, do I want to be here?"

And quite frankly, that's the problem right there. We want people here. We want this community to grow. But that's hard to do when we are alienating 52% of the human population.

Sure, they can choose not to open those posts. But why bother with that, when they can choose to go somewhere that doesn't have such posts to begin with.

See what I'm getting at?

At the end of the day, it's our loss, not theirs.

2) Why not ban it completely?

Because, quite simply, we can't. We can say they are banned all we want, but enforcing that ban is an altogether different story. Unlike real super forums, Kinja is simply not set up to do so. It was never meant to be. There is no way in which we can quickly and methodically go through and delete such posts on a regular basis. Kinja is little more than a continuously-running stream of consciousness, with no form of organization whatsoever. That means to moderate this sort of thing, we simply have to go through pages and pages of nothingness just to get to a handful of posts.

We are all volunteers who take some of our free time to do this, but we don't have that much free time.

Thus, it becomes a matter of logistics. Until we have the resources necessary to address those logistics, we surrender to the reality of it and allow them, but reserve the right to moderate the ever-living hell out of them.

3) You run the Facebook page?

Interesting. I had no idea. Please tell me how you handle such issues.

Chairman Kaga > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:12

There's more porn on the Internet than there are grains of sand on the beach. Why can't we just say "No" for this site?

pauljones > ddavidn
07/16/2014 at 16:16

There is such a board. it's /tag/nsfw after the Oppositelock mainpage URL.

But that's somewhat beside the point. When your wife is there with you, explain to her what Oppositelock is, assuming she doesn't already know; and she sees a tag titled "NSFW," ask her what she thinks. I'd be genuinely curious know.

I'd be surprised if one thought that didn't come up was "Why is this there? I thought this was a place about cars?"

I'm not for banning things, either. I tend to prefer to encourage people to practice good judgment on their own. But I'm also very much in favor of growing this community and making a place that is welcoming for everyone, as are the rest of the mods and admins.

Once in a long while, those two philosophies clash a bit, and we have to try to figure out the best balance between them.

ddavidn > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:23

That's not a board, that's a tag. I didn't necessarily mean a Kinja community, I mean like a Facebook group, or a subreddit or something like that. For example, I have totally random conversations with opponauts on Twitter every day. But I'd never clog up Oppo with that nonsense.

She already knows what Oppo and NSFW are, and that the internet is for full of porn. But she knows I don't click on it, and she doesn't really read over my shoulder, but she would sure notice a picture of a naked lady. And if it looked like more than 30% of the content, she would frown upon it. Again, back to the whole "boys club full of NSFW posts filled with naked women" idea. Wives do not like this, as a general rule. But she knows that it's a car forum and that car pictures sometimes contain half-naked women. The same way she knows that I had a crush on Danica Patrick (until NASCAR).

I don't envy your task of balancing opinions and trying to grow the community and keep everyone happy. You can't make everyone happy all the time. :)

ddavidn > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
07/16/2014 at 16:25

Sure, and when Target says "please don't bring guns into our stores" they lose some NRA members as customers. But they keep some families shopping there. As with guns, I think NSFW should be concealed-carry only.

pauljones > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
07/16/2014 at 16:26

Let's break this down, shall we?

1) I thought this was an "anything goes" forum

For the most part, it is. But there is a line of reason, otherwise known as a social contract of sorts. To be a member of a community, you must first act as a member of said community. There are rules and norms, and if you accept the benefits of being a community member, you must also accept those rules and norms. Personal threats, for instance, are not tolerated here. Period. If someone expressed constant, vitriolic hatred towards you and threatened to throw acid in your face, we would deal with that situation.

Why? Because it's offensive you, and it makes Oppositelock and unpleasant and unwelcoming place for you. We don't want that. We want you to be welcome here.

But guess what? The same goes for many, many other people. While we will certainly do whatever we can to make you feel comfortable and welcome here, we will not, if we can help it, do so at the expense of making everyone else uncomfortable or unwelcome.

You are a valued member of the community, but the community does not revolve around you are any other individual.

From there, you also need to consider that even as mods, we do not own Oppositelock. Oppositelock is owned by Gawker Media. It is their property, not ours. While we have generally free reign, it is only by their good will in that regard. We are guests in their house, and therefore must act accordingly and within reason.

So, yes, there is a limit to "anything goes." Just like any other aspect of your day-to-day life. But it's a pretty damn high limit.

2) Like guns, NSFW is "Cool"

That's an individual judgment, not a blanket community judgment. You are welcome to your own views, and everyone else is welcome to theirs.

3) Like guns, NSFW is "Valuable"

No, actually, it isn't. Particularly not in the context of Oppositelock.

pauljones > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
07/16/2014 at 16:27

See my reply to you elsewhere.

Wacko > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:28

Wow there are more poste these days talking about NFSW than actual NSFW posts. I just don't understand what all the commotion is about. Sure a few months ago a certain person ( I wont name any names) was posting NSFW daily. Even a certain female oppo was rewarding the guys with semi NSFW women on a car.

I have never seen hard core NSFW here, and that really doesn't have a place here. But beautiful cars and sexy women are welcome. Hell someone even did post a few NSFW men posts. hell 95% of the internet is most likley NSFW.

My question is did I miss something, did something get out of hand?

Did anyone ever see a garage without a naked lady calender? Car culture in general is mostly men. and the women that are here accept it. I for one don't care if you are a guy or a girl, black /white/yellow/brown... If you love cars you are welcome here.

Paul is right that if you have to post NSFW follow the rules.

And people don't forget this is the internet, not a church!

is this considered NSFW?

Kinja'd!!!

pauljones > Chairman Kaga
07/16/2014 at 16:29

My reply to that same question that others have posted:

Complex question.

We can't simply ban NSFW posts for several reasons:

3) Oppositelock began life as an off-topic, anything goes forum. As a general rule, I tend to support the notion of it remaining that way. I love cars, but I'm interested in more than just cars.

In a nutshell, it becomes a logistics issue that is rather difficult to solve.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:31

I was just trying to find a metaphor to say that as long as people follow the rules, Nsfw shouldnt be a problem. I guess guns wasnt a good one. Likes someone said earlier, its a slippery slope I dont want Oppo to get in a habit of banning a certain type of content

505Turbeaux > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:37

Yep, I run it, as you mods do. When time/life permits. We only post straight clean content knowing that whatever we push is going to be out in front of your mom, sister, little brother etc. Occasionally we get a random comment that isn't 100% kosher, and it gets flushed. Probably again exactly what you guys have control over in Kinja. It is good for event planning, and has proven to be a good feeder for unique traffic to this subdomain, but we don't have a whole ton of wanton posting to the wall, though I did open it up to open posting on the wall recently.

Back to our original point, I get it. I have 2 daughters, an executive level job on the outskirts of the auto industry, am 35. I have been around the block when it comes to dealing with the fairer sex too, and how that ties into the above. I have been guilty of posting some NSFW and joining the boys club in gawking (pun intended :) ) at the posts on occasion. Sometimes it is a welcome break in the day to see some nakedness after staring at a spreadsheet for 4 hours. That said, if we do not have the man power to police a ban, nor the will we cannot possibly reach enough people here with simple posts on the matter without it turning into a pissing match and having feelings hurt somewhere. All over something you can easily get on your computer, phone, hell even network TV these days. If it is deemed a detriment to OPPO/Jalopnik growth and perception as a whole, then by all means let's just quash it as best as we can. On another note if you want to continue a conversation on how to improve the new intake into Oppo and I can help in any way through Facebook or anything else, let's join forces and get the word out once we have a clear direction on this matter. Facebook (is my personal page for messaging) or let me know if you want my email. I do love this place and want to see it succeed as best as it can

pauljones > Wacko
07/16/2014 at 16:37

In summary, the following:

1) If you don't understand what the commotion is about, re-read the original post.

2) You haven't seen it because on the occasions that it does happen, it tends to be deleted very quickly.

3) It is welcome to you. But it may not be welcome to everyone.

4) Something did catch my attention, and got stuck in my craw today. I explained it in the original post above.

5) Yes, I have seen such a garage.

6) It may be the internet and not a church, but it is nevertheless a community, and we need to be mindful of that.

Chairman Kaga > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:39

So now we rely on civil society to do its thing.

pauljones > 505Turbeaux
07/16/2014 at 16:42

If it is deemed a detriment to OPPO/Jalopnik growth and perception as a whole, then by all means let's just quash it as best as we can.

That's precisely what this entire post is about.

We are doing our best to quash it within the limitations that are placed on us, as explained above.

Once in a while, people simply need a reminder.

pauljones > Chairman Kaga
07/16/2014 at 16:43

And sometimes, civil society needs a reminder and an illustration.

Mattbob > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:44

That's a very reasonable argument. The NSFW has been a bit heavy lately as compared to the past, and I can definitely see what you mean about alienating women with some of these posts... They do get fairly pornographic. I can see the odd pretty lady slipping in there, not really an issue. But yeah I see your point(s).

Mattbob > ddavidn
07/16/2014 at 16:45

Agreed.

pauljones > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
07/16/2014 at 16:49

NSFW can very much be a problem for the reasons that I detailed in the original post. I'm not one for banning things, either. I prefer to encourage people to exercise good judgment of their own accord. However, I - as well as the other mods and admins - am very much in favor of growing our community and welcoming as many as people as possible into it.

Sometimes, those two philosophies clash. When that happens, we must do the best we can to find an appropriate balance.

Wacko > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 16:59

ok so you do delete them, that's why I was asking, since I didn't see much. And that NSFW posts seem to have died since a few months ago. and yes paul I did read the whole thing. I never posted any, I guess i'm just immune to it.

but that comment you got:

"I tried to get into Oppo, but it, quite frankly, seemed like a boys club full of NSFW posts filled with naked women. So I didn't try to hard to check it out and get active."

full of nsfw posts? so she /he fell on one nsfw post and marginalised all of oppo!

pauljones > Wacko
07/16/2014 at 17:05

No, she came across multiple such posts in a matter of hours, several months ago. She said nothing at the time, and we knew nothing of the issue from her perspective until very recently. Others, however, did say something - and that led to the huge NSFW debate from several months ago. Since that debate, the number of NSFW posts have dropped notably, but there are still quite a few, and they are still serving to drive potential community members away.

She didn't marginalize anything - I quite remember that day. There were no less than four NSFW posts in the most popular list on the right side of the screen that day, and it was not an unusual number for the time.

yamahog > Wacko
07/16/2014 at 17:06

Yea, I posted a NSFW men post as an April Fools. The results?

EWWWW GROSS WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT etc

Hmmmm, idk guys, why do YOU do that? ;)

And also, that garage with the nekkid ladies might be a welcome trip down memory lane for you, but for some of us it may as well have said KEEP OUT.

Reigntastic > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:08

Well, ultimately to me Opposite-Lock is and always has been off-topic. I come here for car culture, and the awesome community we have; regardless of gender or nationality. Something I take pride in about being active here, especially compared to other car clubs I participate in, is how well we all get along.

I drive a japanese sports car, others drive domestic muscle cars. Some people (the people I like) drive wagons, others yet even drive minivans. We all get along. To me, this is the biggest hurdle of a car club; I see so much nonsense bickering over something as simple as make and model, that for us to have already moved past that to the social side of things is great.

I want Oppo to be a welcoming place, for anyone. We don't allow racism, we don't allow infighting, and we don't allow blatant sexism. Posting porn can objectify women, and isn't really what being here is all about. I love naked women as much as the next guy, but ultimately it isn't why I bother to waste my time here. With so many individuals with varying degrees of experience, I come here to learn, brag, and shoot the shit.

This really is a slippery slope, though. If somebody is that easily offended where they're put off by human anatomy, they'll probably be offended by a lot more of the content on Oppo than just the nudity. If they're put off by the occasional nude model, they'll be way more put off by the no-nonsense commenters.

pauljones > yamahog
07/16/2014 at 17:12

That, ultimately, is a perfect illustration of the issue at hand.

Like any other forum, Oppo has strict rules against things that can be harmful. The problem is that most don't realize that NSFW posts can very much be harmful on many different levels. It's just a constant blindspot that as guys, we always seem to have.

It's not until we somehow are able to be in a reciprocal situation that we begin to understand. And sometimes, women simply sharing or explaining their experiences isn't always enough. As guys, we are frequently experiential creatures that need to be subjected to it to understand and be willing to help reverse it.

pauljones > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 17:17

An occasional asshole commenter is easy enough to deal with. Blatant pictures and comments of your entire gender being objectified/trivialized slapping you in the face whenever you come to this place are an altogether different story.

Can it be easy enough for women to deal with that? Sure, by not coming here. But when that happens, we lose. It's that simple.

I don't know about you, but I don't like to lose.

So, rather than lose, let's work together to create an environment where we can all benefit.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 17:24

That's kind of where I stand -

If a bunch of female members decided to post pictures of naked attractive guys, I would probably just not click on it. Wouldn't really affect me. I wouldn't really think too much about it.

I am not trying to say that people can't be offended (although I myself find "offense" to be a sort of knee-jerk reaction to anything) but again...there are plenty of things that get posted about politics, religion, and other things that get pretty "offensive" and heated. Yet I don't think anyone is calling for those to be removed. Usually people just ignore those if they don't want to see it.

I have never seen anyone really post anything here that could rationally be described as "porn", and if they did, I'd say something about it. I think it most definitely is a slippery slope, and we should all try to be considerate. However, trying to make everyone happy always ends in making nobody happy. So, some judgement must be used.

Reigntastic > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:25

I definitely agree. There's a place for those kinds of images, and it isn't oppo. I will say, the things I typically see on here pale to what is available elsewhere, and most of the time are pretty tasteful. Just playing devil's advocate, though.

Cars have always been a "boys club" kind of thing for a lot of the guys on here, that mentality is immediately apparent when reading our forum. I'm all for including people, personally, so I agree with you. Everyone should feel welcome here.

It's really not as black as white as you could make it out to be, though. Just because someone is a woman doesn't make them a worthy contributor here; but it also doesn't preclude them from being a worthy contributor here.

NaturallyAspirated > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:26

Thanks for your thoughtfulness on this issue. I've wondered about the issues you raise myself from time to time.

For those expressing concern of a "slippery slope," please be reminded that the "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy - https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope .

Reigntastic > Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment
07/16/2014 at 17:31

We never get anything hardcore here, I definitely agree with that. It is primarily softcore porn, though, that definition is more than accurate.

I'm not the type to be easily offended, typically those that get offended from the slightest thing are close-minded and unable to conceive of any alternative than the one they subscribe to. I don't think anybody who is easily offended is a good fit for Oppo, or anywhere for that matter.

Women have posted nude men here before to prove that point, and they proved it well. Tons of guys got butthurt from questioning their sexuality and grabbed for their pitchforks. Personally, my jimmies went unrustled.

pauljones > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 17:34

Taste is an individual thing.

Cars have traditionally been a "boys club" because it had long been socially driven into us that cars are for boys and dolls are for girls. From a biopsychosocial standpoint, however, there is nothing that in any way, shape, or form should exclude any girl or woman. It's all a socially driven thing.

And how, exactly, would we know one way or the other when so many things that we do serve to exclude girls and women from participating? The simple answer is that we don't. As long as we willfully choose to do exclusionary things, it's as much of a paradox as Schroedinger's cat.

But to take it a step farther towards where this conversation truly does need to go, consider that Oppositelock, like most other forums, has rules against hurtful and offensive materials such as racism, personal threats, etc. And yet, we don't consider NSFW posts harmful or offensive, despite the fact that they do offend potential members of the community and drive them away, which in turn hurts us.

Interesting, don't you think?

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 17:36

Really? I missed that. If they want to do that, I have no problem with that at all. I don't really understand the idea that seems to be going around that we are supposed to act as if we're all unattracted to attractive people. Quite silly.

You're right about soft core stuff I'm sure, I maybe just haven't seen enough on here. I think society as a whole needs to learn to be more open-minded. I love a good debate, things get boring otherwise :)

pauljones > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 17:41

We never get anything hardcore here, I definitely agree with that. It is primarily softcore porn, though, that definition is more than accurate.

Actually, we have. We are simply fortunate enough that each time it's happened, someone caught it almost immediately and deleted.

Conversely, to play Devil's Advocate, those that simply refuse to understand why others might be offended are equally close-minded, and equally unsuited for the world at large.

It didn't bother you. But it did bother many others, and that's the point. Now that the experience has been had, it's time learn from it.

Wacko > yamahog
07/16/2014 at 17:47

I found it funny when you posted it

Wacko > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:48

thanks for the explanation, now I understand.

pauljones > Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment
07/16/2014 at 17:48

That's kind of where I stand -

If a bunch of female members decided to post pictures of naked attractive guys, I would probably just not click on it. Wouldn't really affect me. I wouldn't really think too much about it.

Perhaps, but reality is often an interesting test. How do you think you would respond if you saw five posts of it a day every single time you logged into Oppositelock to talk about cars? How long would you not really think too much about it?

The difference between being offended by political/religious posts and being offended by NSFW posts is that political/religious posts can be understood, contemplated, and ignored. It's a little harder to do that when the multitude of NSFW posts that you see day in and day out (as was the case here on Oppositelock months ago), along with the cat-calling comments, constantly remind you that your entire gender is being objectified and trivialized at all times.

I have never seen anyone really post anything here that could rationally be described as "porn", and if they did, I'd say something about it.

You haven't seen it because it's been caught and deleted very, very quickly.

I think it most definitely is a slippery slope, and we should all try to be considerate. However, trying to make everyone happy always ends in making nobody happy. So, some judgement must be used.

The slippery slope argument is little more than a logical fallacy. But, yes, we do need to be considerate. Thus the original post.

Reigntastic > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:49

Taste is an individual thing.

Yes.

Yes. Because of that mentality, there is more pushback with an issue like this (but muh auto calendars always had babes, etc).

This is where I start to take issue.

It kind of boils down to an Andrew Jackson arguing with congress kind of argument. You want these to be rules, but you lack the authority to enforce them. If you really want to implement this, you have to take a stand, there can't be any gray area. Why don't you consider NSFW offensive? I might not personally find them offensive, but yes, they can be offensive. Change the rules, and enforce them.

I know as a moderator you lack the powers to enforce this rule change effectively, you've said it a few times. Why is it such a big agenda, then? Why don't you focus on getting the tools you need as a moderator to moderate your forum?

There isn't a big "no girls allowed" sign on oppo (although it would make a good headline for the day), and pictures aren't excluding anyone at all. They might make someone take their toys and go home, but at the end of the day it isn't any more exclusionary than somebody who likes stanced cars posting an article about hellaflushstanceaggressiveWHATEVER, and somebody who doesn't like stance getting offended and leaving, since we foster these degenerates that like stretched tires and wide wheels.

Why don't we just get a quota system for approved authors? Clearly the white male circlejerk we have going here hasn't made anything worthwhile.

Dsscats > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:49

This is why I love Oppo so much. Everyone, even when thy disagree, are just so reasonable. That and the lack of hate. The only bothering I've gotten here are light-hearted jabs about my car being auto. Other than that, every disagreement has just been an informative discussion.

Reigntastic > Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment
07/16/2014 at 17:51

I think we'll get along well. I may have my opinions, but I am always up for a debate, and I don't get offended. Logical discourse is a cornerstone of modern society.

Mike > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:53

I just say we include both genders in NSFW posts. As a bisexual dude, I win either way. EQUALITY! WOO!

Reigntastic > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 17:54

Hat tip to the marvelous moderation team we have here though, really. Amazing contributors and fantastic moderators, both at the same time. That's time consuming, and it isn't easy.

We're on the same page here. If you don't want to have nudity on OppositeLock, then make it a rule, quit with this stupid "It's allowed, but...". Yeah, it will be hard to enforce, but it's probably worth it. Shaming people for something you allow explicitly in the rules is asinine.

Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 18:01

I think not allowing them or actively discouraging them is going to be bad. As long as they are marked NSFW I think they aren't that bad. As long as it is not too much, it should be okay.

sketchcat > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 18:01

the negative impact on female readers aside, that's a whole 'nother discussion.

methinks:

the readership sometimes may tip into the young which may make some of the images ive seen.. just a bit too much for an early-teen and younger set

honestly..i love clam. i love classy shots of clam: where the clam just happens to be a small part of the overall beauty of the photo.

we know the difference, we know of those sites where the photos are classy and other where the photos are just...gratuitous.

yet seeing the clam on an un age restricted site makes me worry, for the sites sake. EVEN IF the cam ive seen on oppo to date has been displayed with class.

bare bestisis should be celebrated at all times.

pauljones > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 18:18

Yes. Because of that mentality, there is more pushback with an issue like this (but muh auto calendars always had babes, etc).

Interesting. Mine had automobiles in them.

This is where I start to take issue.

Well then, let's break this down, shall we?

It kind of boils down to an Andrew Jackson arguing with congress kind of argument. You want these to be rules, but you lack the authority to enforce them.

It's not that we necessarily lack the ability to enforce them per se. Rather, it's just that it's somewhat difficult to do effectively on a constant basis. However, if that should ultimately prove a significant issue, I'm sure Gawker IT has a few tricks up their sleeve. I don't think anyone wants to go there, though. I certainly don't.

If you really want to implement this, you have to take a stand, there can't be any gray area.

Typically, yes. But we do the best we can with the resources that we have immediately available to us to make this place a positive, welcoming environment for anyone that wants to partake. As for resources that we don't have immediately available to us, well, I've already addressed that immediately above. Let's just not go there, huh?

Why don't you consider NSFW offensive?

I never said that I didn't. As for the reasons that I might actually find them offensive, re-read the original post.

I might not personally find them offensive, but yes, they can be offensive. Change the rules, and enforce them.

Well, to go back to your example of Andrew Jackson, you see, I've always been of the opinion that the best way to engender change is not to force people to change (which, as I've already pointed out, is a difficult thing to do), but rather to acknowledge that people generally are, in fact, reasonable and to reason with them. It's not the fastest path per se, but it usually tends to be the more effective long-term solution.

It's always better to work hard to cooperate than it is to work hard to fight and argue.

I know as a moderator you lack the powers to enforce this rule change effectively, you've said it a few times.

Yes, I know as much as well.

That's why I'm trying to discuss and reason to promote the long term betterment of the community rather than trying to ham-handedly lay down an arbitrary law on an arbitrary internet site.

Why is it such a big agenda, then?

The answer to this question is in the original post. Re-read it.

Why don't you focus on getting the tools you need as a moderator to moderate your forum?

Two words for you: Gawker IT. Nobody wants to go there, though. Nobody. Especially not me.

There isn't a big "no girls allowed" sign on oppo (although it would make a good headline for the day)...

Literally? Perhaps not. Symbolically? Yes, there very much is. A Jezebel writer named Kat Callahan actually made a great post about this in Oppositelock earlier today. It's definitely worth a read.

...and pictures aren't excluding anyone at all.

They certainly are not excluding you.

They might make someone take their toys and go home, but at the end of the day it isn't any more exclusionary than somebody who likes stanced cars posting an article about hellaflushstanceaggressiveWHATEVER, and somebody who doesn't like stance getting offended and leaving, since we foster these degenerates that like stretched tires and wide wheels.

Similarly, we seem to foster "degenerates" who constantly make posts that do act to hurt portions of our community and also act to limit the potential of our community, only for them to get upset, put their hands over their ears and sing "Lalalala it doesn't offend me" when their sometimes narrow world view is challenged.

At the end of the day, it's always our loss when we turn away an enthusiast like us.

Why don't we just get a quota system for approved authors?

So, the very same individual who relayed the story of Andrew Jackson with the implicit assertion that I lack the authority to make one rule, suggests that I make another rule?

That's not quite how it works for a couple of reasons. First off, at no point in time, either in the original posts or my comments since then, have I asserted that we need to make a hard-and-fast rule. I simply made it a point to show people an alternative standpoint, and show them what the potential consequences of our actions can be.

Secondly, if any such rule for a "quota" were ever to be made (as disgusting a concept as that sounds), that would be the purview of Gawker Media, not me or any other mod. This is ultimately their house, and we are guests within it. All that's asked of us is that we do whatever we can to make this a welcome place for everyone. Hence the original post.

Clearly the white male circlejerk we have going here hasn't made anything worthwhile.

Interesting. You assume that I'm white. As they say, on the internet, everyone is Captain Picard. Even Captain Picard.

After all that, have a good evening.

pauljones > Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder
07/16/2014 at 18:28

That ultimately is the final conclusion, and one that was reached long ago with the caveat that such posts tend to be very carefully monitored.

However, that was never the point of this particular post. There is not, and never has been, a call for an outright ban on them in this post. In fact, going back several months to the last big NSFW debate, I very vehemently fought against any attempt to ban them; not because I did or didn't agree with the concept, but because I know that logistically that's a nearly impossible task.

Rather, the point of this post is to simply provide an alternative perspective, to remind people that all actions have consequences, and to appeal to people to help me make Oppositelock a better place for everyone.

pauljones > Mike
07/16/2014 at 18:32

It's actually funny that you say that. One day, the handful of women that commented here did just that, and got some comically negative and disgusted responses. It was decidedly ironic, and decidedly amusing.

As a side note, however, the concept doesn't quite work like you think. You see, for the most part, women are typically less visually-oriented then man, and more often than not to not get as aroused by pictures of handsome, scantily-clad men as men do by pictures of beautiful, scantily-clad women. In fact, some don't even like it.

But the truth is, it's not about equality in that particular regard. It's about equality from the standpoint that just as we don't come here to find posts and comments that objectify/trivialize our gender left and right, neither should women who would otherwise like to participate and talk cars.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Reigntastic
07/16/2014 at 18:58

I agree 100%....it's always better to be able to have rational, logical discussions about things.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 19:00

I might have missed the time when it was a serious problem, I don't get on here as much as maybe I want to, sometimes go a whole week without it. I've been visiting Oppo specifically for probable about 2 years now, but much more frequently in the last year. If you guys are dealing with that much volume in questionable material, hats off to you for dealing with it quickly enough that I don't see it.

Kat Callahan > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 19:26

Appreciate this, and I appreciate reading the commentary discussion.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 19:30

Let me tell you why I stopped posting on Oppo.

I am an aspiring (and practicing) journalist. I like creating car-related content, I try to find interesting people to interview for my own and the community's enjoyment. So there is a part where I'd like to enforce my own "brand" and post this kind of stuff under my own name and not Oppo's, sharing stuff to Oppo if anyone would want to read it. Click on my name to see what I'm talking about

But there's this other part where I feel turned off by the activities on Oppo. It's not necessarily NSFW stuff, but I just don't feel like clicking any posts that have some random image and a worthless description attached to it. In other words: clutter.

I like fun, I like funny posts. But sometimes I feel it's just worthless putting anything there because it gets buried by people who only post things because they can do so, not because they should or have anything to say in the first place.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I like to keep relevant content and goofy stuff separate. A random image on a Mustang is not a post. Posting something for posting's sake is not a post either (see: Hour Rule). I go to Oppo front page and I don't feel like posting my hard-crafted article there, because it slides down to page 2 in 10 minutes, and when it does, it gets like 15 views total and maybe an unrelated comment.

Fortunately, I had the opportunity to have my writings featured on Jalopnik quite a few times. Sometimes I tipped some older posts - not getting any views on Oppo to one of the editors -, and made it to the front page with an added lead, 10+ thousand views and praising comments.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that keep the conversations in the comments, do not make a post of everything that comes to your mind.

Stef Schrader > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 22:53

{ applauds }

I was kind of annoyed at my desk the other day when I was researching an article for elsewheres. Decent content in the main panel; "Girl of the Day" on the sidebar. It's so contradictory.

I get that it's a turn-on for some folks and won't get offended by well-marked ladiessss here, but there's a time and a place. A site trying to be inclusive might not be the best one.

I like this approach. A ban is too heavy-handed for somewhere like this, but "what does this add?" is always a good question to ask yourself before posting.

ttyymmnn > pauljones
07/16/2014 at 23:13

A Jezebel writer named Kat Callahan actually made a great post about this in Oppositelock earlier today. It's definitely worth a read.

Do you have a link to this? Thanks.

thebigbossyboss > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V)
07/16/2014 at 23:23

Not to be a dick, but in terms of the "hour rule" those usually come in between 3-5 am EST, when Oppo activity is at it's lowest.

If nothing has been posted for an entire hour, I say "Go ahead and make a random post" you are not harming anything. If anyone had had something to say...they would have said it.

thebigbossyboss > yamahog
07/16/2014 at 23:26

Meanwhile I don't even facebook.

Gamecat235 > ttyymmnn
07/17/2014 at 00:02

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/have-we-really…

ttyymmnn > Gamecat235
07/17/2014 at 00:04

Thanks.

Gamecat235 > ttyymmnn
07/17/2014 at 00:06

No problem. There are some very interesting (and some very predictable) conversations in the comment section. Some of them were revelatory. Kat's been a commenter here for a while, and she runs roygbiv.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 00:21

but how is this any different from Oppo hating on bro trucks and stanced cars?

because sexually objectified women aren't automobiles.

mr_gofast > yamahog
07/17/2014 at 00:25

which group?? the opppotalk group dss and I admin has no nsfw..we prefer it that way

mr_gofast > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 00:26

i also have a facebook group for oppo, id be glad to help

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > thebigbossyboss
07/17/2014 at 02:38

Okay, but for the record: I'm in the GMT+1 time zone. I wake up in the morning, click on Oppo and there are people battling memes with each other. It's kinda global. I used to time my posts so that US readers can read t from the small hours, staying on the front page for quite a while. I tried "prime time" as well, worked out about the same.

So I'm just writing my stuff, post it on my blog, share it on Oppo, tip one of the Jalopnik editors, and there's a front page.

Mattbob > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 07:34

out of nowhere! Text nsfw ( . )( . )

yamahog > mr_gofast
07/17/2014 at 07:55

There's a page and a group, but regardless of content I don't want to participate under my real name.

mr_gofast > yamahog
07/17/2014 at 08:03

thats quite alright..im more concerned about staying on topic in the group and not peoples real names and willingness to share them.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 08:19

Oppo is still overwhelmingly about cars, with some NSFW sprinkled in. People should be able to handle that. That complaint you mentioned "a boys club full of NSFW posts" simply isn't true. Anyone that perceives it as such, I don't know if they should be a member in the first place. I'd say car posts HANDILY outnumber non-car posts and even more so nsfw-posts.

There are plenty of publications out there that sprinkle in risque content. We aren't much different in my opinion. It's easy to ignore, it's fun to look at if you are so inclined. If an NSFW post every 50 to 100 posts is offensive, I think we are being overly sensitive/prude, whatever word you want to attach to it.

Oh the kids! Oh the kids! Shit. I saw my first boobs in a Playboy at like 10 years old and look how I turned out, ok, maybe that's a bad argument, but boobs really are harmless. I'd be more concerned if we were posting gruesome violence for kids to see.

willkinton247 > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 09:23

I echo these sentiments completely. Thank you. I've noticed a decrease in NSFW posts lately, but it is absolutely destructive to the community because it DOES alienate a huge chunk of the population. You'd have to be ignorant to not realize that.

pauljones > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
07/17/2014 at 10:42

So, we have a couple of things going here.

Another commenter brought up the issue of how many posts show up now, but this complaint was not about the way things are now, but the way they were several months ago, when the last huge NSFW debate occurred. She was not over-inflating the problem. I remember the day in question, and there were no less than four NSFW posts in the top stories, and all of them were posted in a period of a couple of hours. That wasn't out of the ordinary at that point in time.

She was not exaggerating in the least.

She said nothing of it at the time, but others did, and that's what sparked the last big NSFW debate. I did not know about her experience until yesterday.

As for whether or not someone should or should not be a member, I do not think you could be more wrong. If she shares our interest in cars and automotive culture, then I want her to be able feel welcome here.

Oppositelock is not a publication. It is a simple, stream-of-consciousness blog of user-sourced content. As for the frequency of NSFW posts, while they have dropped considerably in the past few months, but they still occur far more frequently than your thin-air estimate.

As for the argument of being prude... well, let's talk about that, shall we?

NSFW content does not offend you (indeed you think it fun to look at), but that's because you are a heterosexual male. Of course it doesn't bother you. On the face of it, it doesn't actually bother me, either.

But guess what?

You and I aren't the only ones in this community, and this community does not revolve around us. There are actually these women creatures that come in and would otherwise like to participate, but have a hard time justifying it when there are semi-regular posts and many, many comments that objectify and/or trivialize their entire gender slapping them in the face every time they come here.

That's a problem.

You see, we actually want to grow this place, and create an environment where anyone can feel welcome, irrespective of age or gender. That's really hard to do when, as a community, we do things that alienate 52% of the goddamn human population. If we alienate a potential enthusiast and cause them to go somewhere else, then it's not their loss. It's our loss as a community.

But, then, these are all things I've addressed multiple times both in the original post and in the multitude of other comments threads here.

Oh the kids! Oh the kids! Shit. I saw my first boobs in a Playboy at like 10 years old and look how I turned out, ok, maybe that's a bad argument, but boobs really are harmless.

So you saw your first boobs (other than your mother's) in a Playboy magazine when you were ten years old. Guess what? You saw your first penis (i.e., yours) way the hell before that. How comfortable would you be with seeing a bunch of NSFW penis posts all over Oppositelock?

My guess is you wouldn't be real happy about, and I sure as shit wouldn't blame you for that.

Are you starting to understand the purpose of this post now? How do you think a potential contributor, who shares our enthusiasm for cars and automotive culture, but just so happens to be a girl/woman, might feel?

While underage kids sure as shit have access to such content in a number of other places, that's not a rational justification for posting it here.

When we post here, we should be asking ourselves if the content that we post is making a contribution to the community as a whole. NSFW adds nothing to community; in fact, it detracts from the community given its ability to drive away potential new members.

I'd be more concerned if we were posting gruesome violence for kids to see.

I, too, would be concerned if we were posting gruesome violence for kids to see. After all, children very much are impressionable, and they very much do learn, and are conditioned by, what they see around them. Thus, exposing them to such content would be setting a very bad example for them to follow.

You know what else would be setting a bad example for kids to follow?

Posting content that can be interpreted as objectifying/trivializing an entire gender, which consists of more than half of the human population, before the have the maturity to understand that sexual attraction is great, but objectification is not.

The point of this post is not to ban NSFW content; I can't and won't argue for that. Rather, it's to encourage people to exercise their own good judgment when posting, and to consider the contributions and potential consequences of their posts, not only as they apply to them, but also to the community as a whole.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 11:05

I think one good move would be to block the NSFW keyword/tag from making it into the recommended story list, no matter what. And other than that, as it is currently they don't seem to pop up a whole lot, the time that I spend on oppo, I probably see them 3 - 7 times a week and I spend a LOT of time on here.

As for making ANYONE comfortable, I think we'd have to compromise too much, not just NSFW, to make that happen. I think all considered we are a very welcoming place, we have drift/stance/truck/hypermiling/muscle/diesel/rotary/etc/etc/etc fans here.

I would definitely be concerned if NSFW would be a 10x daily occurrence, I think at its current rate it isn't incredibly offensive.

As for penises all over oppo, yes I'd dislike that. Personally I try not to post genitalia of either variety when I post something NSFW, or if I do, it's FAR from the focal point of the picture. So yes, pictures of penises would be a bit extreme for my tastes.

I realize we aren't a publication, but we attract some of the same audience that some publications would and they are willing to accept it in those.

TLDR, I think as long as these NSFW posts don't flare up in great numbers, we are fine. Especially if they aren't straight-up porn, which they in almost all cases aren't.

pauljones > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
07/17/2014 at 12:00

I think one good move would be to block the NSFW keyword/tag from making it into the recommended story list, no matter what.

That is a very good suggestion, but one that is outside the realm of what we can do as moderators. It will, however, be brought to the attention of Gawker IT.

And other than that, as it is currently they don't seem to pop up a whole lot, the time that I spend on oppo, I probably see them 3 - 7 times a week and I spend a LOT of time on here.

That's still a lot. On average, that's still one a day. That's still a very high chance of seeing one, and potentially driving away a new contributor.

Life is about compromise, and most here are willing to compromise to help make new members feel welcome here.

I would definitely be concerned if NSFW would be a 10x daily occurrence, I think at its current rate it isn't incredibly offensive.

Not offensive to you. But, then as I tried to point out in my prior response - both subtly and not-so-subtly - you are not, in fact, woman. It is not your gender that's being objectified and trivialized not only in NSFW posts, but in comments from other community members.

So, yes, of course it isn't incredibly offensive to you.

It's not about what you personally try or try not to do. It's what the community as a whole does.

Of course pictures of penises would be be a bit extreme for your tastes, which brings me back to the question that I posed to you in my prior response: If you, as a male, would be uncomfortable seeing pictures of male genitalia all over the place, how do you think a woman might feel about seeing pictures of female genitalia all over the place?

I realize we aren't a publication, but we attract some of the same audience that some publications would and they are willing to accept it in those.

Tell me about such publications. How many automotive-focused publications can you name that include random articles containing pages of NSFW nudity and explicitness in every issue? Personally, I can't think of any. Sure, there are magazines like Import Tuner, which frequently have a picture of a lovely model on the front, and then a small interview with them about who they are and how they got into cars, etc. But really, that's about it.

TLDR, I think as long as these NSFW posts don't flare up in great numbers, we are fine. Especially if they aren't straight-up porn, which they in almost all cases aren't.

In that case, the next time I go to delete something like a penis post, I'll keep in mind that you said you'd be fine with a few of those.

If you haven't already figured it out, I'm trying to get you to shift your perspective a little bit, and put yourself in someone else's place. Show a little empathy, and a little open-mindedness. This post nor any of the comments in here are not attacks meant to crucify you or anyone else; rather, they are attempts to present an alternative viewpoint that does not generally get and representation because of the attitudes of people who don't think any further than themselves.

thebigbossyboss > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 14:48

I have never posted a NSFW (except one music video, but it was NSFW because gore not women).

If that commenter thinks we are "just a boys club full of naked women" she is the one who is wrong. That's not what Oppo is about at all. It's about cars and our love for them.

She too, is fallible.

pauljones > thebigbossyboss
07/17/2014 at 15:22

You seem to be missing the point here, so let me see if I can put this another way to help you understand.

First, let's address your comments:

I have never posted a NSFW (except one music video, but it was NSFW because gore not women).

This isn't about what you, individually, have or have not done. It's about the community as a whole.

If that commenter thinks we are "just a boys club full of naked women" she is the one who is wrong. That's not what Oppo is about at all. It's about cars and our love for them.

At the point in time that she had this experience, she was not at all wrong. There was a time several months ago when there were five or six such posts a day, with as many as four or five of them constantly on the Top Stories list at any given point in time. It got bad enough that it sparked a significant public debate about the matter at the time.

I did not know about her personal experience until yesterday.

Is Oppositelock about cars and our love them?

Predominantly, yes. And that's great. But there are other things in Oppo, too. Most of it is fun, interesting, and innocuous; and more often than not it serves to contribute positively to the community. Again, that's great. Sometimes, however, the things that are posted to Oppositelock not only don't add any particular value, but can also serve to detract from the community unnecessarily. Things like NSFW posts. For more on that, I'll let you go back and re-read the original post. It's all there.

She too, is fallible.

As are you.

If you take the time to actually read the original post in its entirety, and then read the other conversation threads in the comments, you'd find that your questions/concerns/implications have been brought up, discussed, and addressed by others. Having done that, you would be in a position to make a useful contribution to the discussion, rather than simply parrot the same lack of understanding possessed by others before you.

I would certainly still recommend that you take the time to actually do that reading, but I'll give you a brief summary anyways:

This post is not about banning NSFW content. This post is not singling out any given individual.

This post is about presenting an alternative viewpoint to help us consider what we post and why, and to encourage us, as a community, to bot exercise good judgment on an individual level and to ask ourselves whether or not the things that we post are contribute positively to the rest of the community. This post is about not-so-subtly demonstrating that NSFW content is generally not a positive contribution to the community. This post is about asking for help in making Oppositelock a friendly, positive, and welcoming environment for everyone that wants to participate positively.

That's a general abstract, but the depth of the topic is much more in-depth and much more nuanced. Read the original post. Read the prior conversations. There has been a great deal of very good discussion, and it may give you something to think about. I encourage you to check it out and then contribute.

thebigbossyboss > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 16:25

This is my summary of what has happened so far from MY perspective.

Again, this is my perspective on this, how I have perceived this conversation.

1) *reads post*

2) *reads some comments*

3) *contributes*

4) *is told he didn't read said post and feels as though he is being spoken to as if he is either a child or an idiot*

5) *takes sip of beer*

I'm not going to go further with this, but yeah I got it. You're telling me don't post NSFW.

Fine I don't post NSFW anyways.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > pauljones
07/17/2014 at 17:52

Not adding to the conversation in a substantial way here, but I'd like to voice my support for this change in attitude, if not policy.

Brian, The Life of > pauljones
07/21/2014 at 15:44

I'm sorry I missed this last week, Paul. This is fantastic!

NotUnlessRoundIsFunny > pauljones
07/21/2014 at 18:25

This (your post) is the kind of thing that really draws me to Oppo. Civilized, thoughtful discussion.

Sure there's fun and hijinks, but it's generally a grown up and positive place. And kudos to the community and its moderators for keeping it so. It would be a shame to drive away potential contributors.

So, thanks.

McLarry > pauljones
07/24/2014 at 21:28

I know I'm late on this and the conversation has already run its course, but I haven't been around much lately, and I just wanted to throw my opinion into the hat. As I understand it, we're trying to balance 'complete freedom' with a 'friendly environment', but sometimes these two are not complementary goals...the only way we can maintain both freedom and a wholesome environment is by unilateral agreement by all parties, but....well, this is the internet (a friendly corner of it, perhaps, but the internet).

Here are my thoughts on this: it's not really about complete freedom - we've already limited that. This is a public forum, but authorship is not assumed - it must be granted, and it can be just as easily revoked. It may be very easy to come by, but the point stands nonetheless. When topics like this come up, we like to say that this is an 'anything goes' community and that we don't want to jeopardize that, but it's really not...not everything goes, and there are rules and moderators, like yourself, in place to ensure that. I'm not sure how to word the next bit without sounding pushy, but try not to read it that way... Regarding your thoughts on the ban, I'm not sure I see the limitation; you and the other moderators already police the forum for offensive content and delete it, why not simply expand the definition of what will be deleted? If some slips in, so be it, but at least we've made our stance clear. If we are against it, we might as well be full-assed against it, not half-assed. I don't mean to heap this on you as if you need to be responsible for all this, but I'm not sure how else to say it. There's also the option of bringing on more mods if necessary to balance the workload.

As to my own personal leanings, as if they matter, I'm not offended by these posts and often enjoy them, but I think the philosophical point is much more compelling. I'm very aware that other people are offended by this content, and that makes me embarrassed for us. I want to be proud that I'm a member of this community, but I don't always feel that way.

Xyl0c41n3 > pauljones
09/23/2014 at 13:30

Thank you for all your comments and patient rebuttals in this thread. Excellently put, every one.

desertdog5051 > Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V)
01/16/2015 at 18:47

I know that your post is an old post. But it is so applicable. I have been away from Oppo and the CL for a while and was catching up. I got snared by the CrazedClay thing on CL and it led me to the PaulJones post which led me to your comment. Hope you see this. There seems to be a lot of old names disappearing and the demographic is changing quickly.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > desertdog5051
01/16/2015 at 19:08

Wow, this one.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > desertdog5051
02/05/2015 at 16:01

I caught up on all the stuff with Clay's ban just today...